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The Space Show Classroom with Drs. Jurist & Logan, Monday, 1-6-14 January 7, 2014

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The Space Show Classroom with Drs. Jurist & Logan, Monday, 1-6-14


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Guests: Dr. Jim Logan, Dr. John Jurist.  Topics:  Space advocacy magical/fantasy thinking, radiation, rockets, HSF & more.  Please direct all comments and questions regarding Space Show programs/guest(s) to the Space Show blog, https://thespaceshow.wordpress.com.  Comments and questions should be relevant to the specific Space Show program. Written Transcripts of Space Show programs are a violation of our copyright and are not permitted without prior written consent, even if for your own use. We do not permit the commercial use of Space Show programs or any part thereof, nor do we permit editing, YouTube clips, or clips placed on other private channels & websites. Space Show programs can be quoted, but the quote must be cited or referenced using the proper citation format. Contact The Space Show for further information. In addition, please remember that your Amazon purchases can help support The Space Show/OGLF. See www.onegiantleapfoundation.org/amazon.htm.

We welcomed back Drs. Jurist and Logan to this CLASSROOM program which addressed many issues of the 2 hours 1 minute broadcast.  We started out with Dr. Logan discussing fantasy or magical thinking going back to the influence of a 2001 Space Odyssey movie poster had on him.  From there, Jim went into a discussion about Constellation, then the Space Shuttle as examples of what he was talking about and as to how programs and faulty ideas grow and multiply.  He also talked about life science challenges.  A listener asked him about space politics, then Dr. Jurist offered additional examples with a focus on air launch.  Our guests then discussed thinking based on agendas and ideology.  One of the keys suggested for breaking out of this magical thinking mode involved surrounding yourself with really smart people.  Later, I offered my perspective on that given my own experiences early on in Space Show time and before.   Both Jim and John said a few times that one needs to know his or her limitations.  Our guests then talked due diligence with assumption building, fact checking, disclosures, and more.  I relayed my own wake -up call experience due to Al Zaehringer who was on the show several times years ago before he passed on.  Before the segment ended, Jim told us a story about the Wright Brothers and their Wright Flyer experience.  In our second segment, John Hunt called in to talk about Jim’s Space Shuttle comments.  This was a lengthy discussion with John, Jim, & John Jurist.  Jim talked about advantages with Saturn V including economic advantages over shuttle to LEO.  Subjects of reusability came up along with issues of getting a specific payload to orbit which our guests suggested advocacy often glosses over with facts and trades for payload mass fractions involved in reusability.  Dr. Logan brought up and discussed what he called NASA Brinkmanship Strategy.  Jim then talked about the reality of sending payloads to the ISS using shuttle.   Trent in Australia sent a message about magical thinking with Mars One.  Our last caller was Alan from St. Louis who said John and Jim were too negative in their discussion.  Alan then talked about using smaller rockets over heavy lift and was working to make the case that we have to work with what we have.  He also talked about evolving up from smaller, not starting off with the biggest.  Each of us responded to Alan.  It’s a discussion you do not want to miss.

Please post your comments/questions on either or both The Space Show Blog above or The Space Show Classroom blog, http://spaceshowclassroom.wordpress.com.  You can reach all of the participants including the callers through me at drspace@thespaceshow.com.



1. To Terraform Mars with Present Technology – Far into Realms of Magical Thinking – Opinion Piece | robertinventor - April 13, 2015

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3. Robert Walker - January 14, 2014

Great show. I’m going to add a section on magical thinking, referring to this show, to my recent science20 blog post on Venus cloud colonies, and on the trouble with terraforming Mars post..

One other good example of magical thinking not mentioned in the show, I think are all the ideas for terraforming, whenever they are described as projects we could start on right away..

When we have the technology to put giant mirrors and shadese into space to cool down Venus and create an artificial sun with a 24 hour day – or to warm up Mars – then we would surely by then have completely solved the Earth global warming problems and energy issues. That’s because it would then be a simple matter to collect all the power we need as solar energy from similar giant mirrors around the Earth – or solar power satellites around Earth – and beam it back to Earth.

Similarly when we have the technology to turn Mars or Venus into a second Earth with all the cycles working perfectly – using the same technology it would be an utterly trivial matter to keep Earth well adjusted so that its CO2 levels do not increase by the few percent that are causing our current global warming issues.

So both those ideas are for a future utopian solar system where huge mega-engineering projects are the norm, and who knows what else we could do. By the time it is easy to put giant mirrors into space, we may well have fusion power for instance, as it seems only a decade or two ago – possibly also micro-fusion plants using the likes of the Polywell and other ideas for micro-fusion if any of the current plans work out.

If so, we can easily create artificial suns also and colonise the Oort cloud and so on.

The magical thinking there is to suppose we can do such projects right now with present day technology and at an affordable cost.

Or that we have the knowledge and understanding to start right away on a project that requires that level of control and technology to succeed.

Robert Walker - January 14, 2014

Here is the latest version of my article, with two new sections on magical thinking, linking to this show.


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