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Joe Carroll, Monday, 11-2-15 November 2, 2015

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Joe Carroll, Monday, 11-2-15

http://archived.thespaceshow.com/shows/2576-BWB-2015-11-02.mp3

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Guest: Joe Carroll. Topics: Artificial gravity, what’s next for human spaceflight? Please direct all comments and questions regarding Space Show programs/guest(s) to the Space Show blog, https://thespaceshow.wordpress.com. Comments and questions should be relevant to the specific Space Show program. Written Transcripts of Space Show programs are a violation of our copyright and are not permitted without prior written consent, even if for your own use. We do not permit the commercial use of Space Show programs or any part thereof, nor do we permit editing, YouTube clips, or clips placed on other private channels & websites. Space Show programs can be quoted, but the quote must be cited or referenced using the proper citation format. Contact The Space Show for further information. In addition, please remember that your Amazon purchases can help support The Space Show/OGLF. See www.onegiantleapfoundation.org/amazon.htm. For those listening to archives using live365.com and rating the programs, please email me as to why you assign a specific rating to the show. This will help me bring better programming to the audience.

We welcomed back to the program Joe Carroll to update us on his work with artificial and partial gravity, plus his thoughtful considerations for what comes next for human spaceflight. I have uploaded three papers of Joe to The Space Show blog for today’s program. He does refer to these papers and presentations during the show so be sure to follow along by viewing them on the blog. During the first segment of our 1 hour 41 minute program, Joe said he preferred using the term partial gravity to artificial gravity. He talked 1 g issues, tests that can be done on the ground and the need to learn about gravity limitations for humans through ISS research. Centrifuge spin rates were a significant discussion topic in this segment. Here, he referred us to Appendix A page 8 for a two page discussion on early research on this subject. See his paper titled “Partial Gravity Biology Research Paper for Space 2015 Final” on TSS blog. Joe referred several times to the Twins & one year cosmonaut/astronaut study underway on the ISS, plus the Gemini 7 mission which answered several important microgravity questions. Later, Joe suggested we look at the chart on the third slide of his Power Point where he showed the gravity factor of major bodies in our solar system. This is an interesting discussion, don’t miss it. It also pointed to the importance of knowing the gravity prescription for Moon-Mars as it covers most of the solar system gravity ranges. Doug sent in an email about spin rates as high as 24 rpm. Don’t miss how Joe responded to Doug who then sent in a clarification email about upright exercise in a short-arm centrifuge. Again, don’t miss Joe’s reply. At this point, Joe started raising questions about why Mars, asking what were the economic reasons. He referenced our National Space Policy from 2010. Joe suggested the direction of the manned program was confusing at best. He talked about the remaining residual from the Apollo momentum and the Outer Space Treaty impact on future human spaceflight. BJohn emailed in about artificial gravity experiments with cubesats.

In the second segment, Tim asked several questions including one about using weighted clothing to offset microgravity. The subject of radiation exposure came up and here, Joe talked about the side effects of “fixes” which may cause even more problems than just the original problem being mitigated. He again referenced the Twin and cosmonaut/astronaut studies on the ISS now underway. Doug called regarding my earlier comments where I reference a past show in which many listeners did not think we needed to know the gravity prescription. Doug corrected what I said about his position but Joe thought there were solid advantages to know the gravity RX and to do so in LEO. You will find this discussion to be very interesting. In the latter part of this segment, we talked about being serious about humans going BLEO if we are not serious about finding out the gravity RX for humans. Safety came up and here Joe had much to say about the approaches regarding Orion and Dragon. Jack emailed in about our lack of seriousness on HSF BELO since we are not trying to learn the human gravity RX for long duration spaceflight or settlement. Joe went so far as to suggest convening a panel discussion to open up the discussion channels on what should be next for HSF. He listed potential participants but also invited listeners to send in to me or post on the blog their suggestions for participants. He said this was the perfect time for such a discussion as we entered the last year of the current administration. Doug sent in the final email saying that the challenge was more about how we go about deciding who’s vision gets the funding, suggesting this challenge took precedent over figuring out the next vision for HSF.

Please post your comments/questions on TSS blog above. You can reach Joe through me.  The papers Joe referenced can be found below.

Ted Hall’s webpage, www.artificial-gravity.com.  His presentations are below:

Partial Gravity Biology Research Paper for Space 2015 Final

Partial Gravity Biology Research Presentation for Space 2015

Design Concepts for a Manned Partial Gravity Research Facility 2010IAC rev 2014July11

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Gerald Driggers, Monday, 9-21-15 September 22, 2015

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Gerald Driggers, Monday, 9-21-15

http://archived.thespaceshow.com/shows/2557-BWB-2015-09-21.mp3

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Guest: Gerald Driggers. Topics: Artificial gravity & his Space Review Article “Reduced Gravity: The 400-kilogram gorilla in the room.” Please direct all comments and questions regarding Space Show programs/guest(s) to the Space Show blog, https://thespaceshow.wordpress.com. Comments and questions should be relevant to the specific Space Show program. Written Transcripts of Space Show programs are a violation of our copyright and are not permitted without prior written consent, even if for your own use. We do not permit the commercial use of Space Show programs or any part thereof, nor do we permit editing, YouTube clips, or clips placed on other private channels & websites. Space Show programs can be quoted, but the quote must be cited or referenced using the proper citation format. Contact The Space Show for further information. In addition, please remember that your Amazon purchases can help support The Space Show/OGLF. See www.onegiantleapfoundation.org/amazon.htm. For those listening to archives using live365.com and rating the programs, please email me as to why you assign a specific rating to the show. This will help me bring better programming to the audience.

 

We welcomed back Gerald Driggers to discuss his August 10, 2015 Space Review article, “Reduced Gravity: The 400-kilogram gorilla in the room.” You can read & download this article at www.thespacereview.com/article/2802/1. During the first segment of our 1 hour 42 minute discussion, Gerald talked about the old concept to put a centrifuge on the ISS but of course that never happened. Much of the first segment our guest and listeners lamented the lack of attention to mitigating problems caused by microgravity by developing some form of artificial gravity as the standard mitigation tool. Gerald referenced several studies in support of the need for artificial gravity, including one only a year or so old. Listeners asked him about minimizing travel time to a destination, say Mars, as a way of mitigating microgravity issues. We talked about that but Gerald pointed out that at the destination you would still be in a less than 1 G earth gravity environment so what then? I asked Gerald if being stuck in LEO for decades might have contributed to the lack of NASA progress in this area. Kelly sent in an email asking several things, including a question about spin rates. Kelly also wanted to know why artificial gravity had been ignored for so long, suggesting the possibility that advocacy groups disregard it. I did not support Kelly’s contention as I have done many Space Show programs with advocates pushing for artificial gravity and even coming up with their own plans on how to achieve it. Gerald was asked about tethers. His response triggered a lengthy email from Joe Carroll on the subject which I will post for Joe on the blog for this program, then Joe called the show in the second segment. Gerald was asked about artificial gravity work going on in other countries & with other government space agencies. He also talked about the need to really just test for Mars and lunar gravity given the relationship of these numbers throughout our solar system to other planets and moons.

 

In the second segment, Gerald talked about his science fiction book series, “Earth Mars Chronicles” plus the long scale settlement of Mars. At this point Joe Carroll called to talk about his email, tethers, and the artificial gravity issue. Don’t miss the fine discussion with Joe and Gerald they brought up many facts about the situation, the 2010 National Space Policy and more. Joe referenced the Fresno Underground Gardens as a possible example of underground living which he said would be necessary due to radiation. There would be no on the surface living. He also talked about the need for a colony to expand internally and the challenges in setting up an ecosystem on another planetary body. Joe introduced us to other issues such as the need for a gut bacteria study on the ISS and the differences between genders in reduced gravity though that information is not gathered. Given that Gerald described himself as a Mars guy, not a Moon guy, I told him about the New York Times Op-Ed that appeared today, “Let’s Not Move to Mars” by Ed Regis. You can read the article at www.nytimes.com/2015/09/21/opinion/lets-not-move-to-mars.html?smprod=nytcore-iphone&smid=nytcore-iphone-share&_r=0. If you do read it and I hope you do, make sure to read the comments as well. Dr. Doug was the next caller. Doug and Gerald also had an interesting discussion as Doug suggested there was no need to do artificial gravity experiments in LEO, instead go directly to the Moon and do them there. This of course presumes we are going to the Moon. I talked with Doug about this as I think returning to the Moon, as much as I would like to see it happen, is still an unsupported assumption, especially if we are looking for the government to do it. This opened up a discussion about the private sector with Gerald saying he thought progress was more likely coming from the private sector than NASA regarding the issues talked about today. I pointed out that if we had private Bigelow space stations and somewhat affordable launch, then we might see this type of research undertaken if it was in the interest of a company to do so. Doug and Gerald continued their discussion which you don’t want to miss. As the show was ending, Gerald told us about his new e-book coming out on Kindle for just 99 cents on October 1, “Martian Sniper.” From what he said about it, it sounds like a winner so be sure to download and read it.

 

Please post your comments/questions on TSS blog above. You can reach Mr. Driggers through me or his website, http://earth-mars.com.

 

 

 

Space Show Webinar, Sunday, 5-25-14 May 24, 2014

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Space Show Webinar, Sunday, 5-25-14

Partial Gravity, Tethers, Artificial Gravity

Joe Carroll, Dr. Jim Logan, Dr. John Jurist

http://archived.thespaceshow.com/shows/2249-BWB-2014-05-25.mp3 — Audio only

http://vimeo.com/channels/thespaceshow — Webinar Video

Guests:  Joe Carroll, Dr. John Jurist, Dr. Jim Logan.  Topics:  Partial/Artificial gravity, tethers, NASA, HSF & more.  Please direct all comments and questions regarding Space Show programs/guest(s) to the Space Show blog, https://thespaceshow.wordpress.com.  Comments and questions should be relevant to the specific Space Show program. Written Transcripts of Space Show programs are a violation of our copyright and are not permitted without prior written consent, even if for your own use. We do not permit the commercial use of Space Show programs or any part thereof, nor do we permit editing, YouTube clips, or clips placed on other private channels & websites. Space Show programs can be quoted, but the quote must be cited or referenced using the proper citation format. Contact The Space Show for further information. In addition, please remember that your Amazon purchases can help support The Space Show/OGLF. See http://www.onegiantleapfoundation.org/amazon.htm.  For those listening to archives using live365.com and rating the programs, please email me as to why you assign a specific rating to the show. This will help me bring better programming to the audience.  To see the video broadcast for this webinar, please go to http://vimeo.com/channels/thespaceshow.  Note that the audio only & video archive will be posted at the same time once the video is edited, processed, and uploaded to the Vimeo Space Show channel.  Joe Carroll has presentation material on The Space Show Blog which he referred to throughout our discussion so you may want to download the material or have it available to you when viewing the webinar.

We welcomed back to the program Joe Carroll to follow up on his May 2011 Space Show Classroom program on the same subject.  Our panel members included Dr. John Jurist and Dr. Jim Logan. All of us were part of the May 2011 program on this same topic.  During segment one of our 2 hour 10 minute webinar, Joe Carroll went over his background, interest, and experience in the subject dating back to 1981.  Joe discussed his recent work and updates including his concerns for the rotation rate, Coriolis effect & the absence of any substantial progress in the area.  He directed us to Slide 2 & the specific language used in the 201 US National Space Policy introduction.  Our guests talked about missed opportunities by NASA & others to do the essential research needed to confirm the gravity prescription for humans.  Our guests also talked about the amazing amount of unknowns regarding the effects of microgravity or Zero G on humans as we are a 1 G species.  The issue of space settlements came up & I asked our guests if we were jumping the gun pushing settlements when so much of the human factors work remains unresolved and even unknown.  Joe talked about two extremes in the approach to settlements.  He said one extreme was to simply prove issues by walking.  That is, just try it.  The other extreme was to do “endless research and studies,” a critique often mentioned by space advocates.  Jim pointed out that essentially knowing nothing about the Gravity Prescription despite 53 years of human spaceflight experience doesn’t rise to the definition of “endless research and studies.” Apollo was the walking theory for the most part.  Our guests then talked about NASA plans for an outpost as compared to a settlement, specifically for the Moon.  During this segment, we received several listener emails which the guests responded to.  During this time, Jim continued to state that it was essential that we know at least the basic outlines of the gravity prescription for humans for long duration interplanetary spaceflight.  Our guests talked about the ISS and the role it could play in supporting gravity research.  Joe continued to discuss more of his slides and our panel members had much to say about the discussion. Toni called at the end of the segment to ask about 1 RPM spin rate and mentioned that SpaceX said it wanted to go to Mars by 2020.  Here is the article Tony referenced:  http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2634046/Elon-Musk-says-SpaceX-making-progress-Mars-colony-2020-plans-sell-tickets-500-000.html.

In the second segment, we decided to hold the listener emails until the end of the broadcast to allow Joe time to finish his slides and state his conclusions.  We started off with Slides 6, 7 & 8.  Joe progressed to talk about the inflatable tunnel, some of the technical aspects including specs and diameters and why one was better than the others.  Joe continued taking us quickly through the slides but for those interested in the details, pay close attention to them or contact Joe as his email address is on his presentation material.  Joe spent some time this segment talking about doing Gemini-like tether experiments and he also referred us to Robert Walker’s work.  Robert is a Space Show guest from the UK who has done excellent work on the issue of partial gravity based on Joe’s work with tethers, etc.  Check out Robert’s paper at
http://www.science20.com/robert_inventor/crew_tether_spin_for_artificial_gravity_on_way_to_iss_stunning_new_videos_space_show_webinar_on_sunday-137070.  Don’t miss the links to the tether spin videos in his paper.  The subject of rocket reusability came up and again, Joe and our guests had much to say about this so don’t miss it.  Also in this segment, there was more focus on spin rates.  Joe took us through is conclusion slide which is Slide 20.  He talked about the difficulty in selling space as the next stuff and said one never launches with cutting edge hardware.  We then fielded second segment listener emails on a variety of topics, then we talked about people wanting to go to Mars with the just do it concept mentioned in the first segment.  Several Dr. Zubrin comments were used as illustrations along with SpaceX plans to do Mars by 2020.  All of our guests said there was a significant difference in a short trip to the Moon with Apollo where the decision was made to take the risk for a few days but that going beyond LEO for a long trip to Mars for example was a totally different thing altogether.  Jim used long duration sailing voyages as an example of how the issues for the crew once the long duration trips were started turned out to be very vastly different than for short, easy, turnaround ‘sortie’ voyages. Once transoceanic voyages were attempted it didn’t take Captains, crews or their respective patrons long to realize long duration voyages came with radical new levels of complexity and increased human risk.  We talked more about tethers as well.  Jim made the point that the average time spent on the Moon per Apollo lunar moonwalker was only 2.06 days, a woefully inadequate time to ascertain increased risk.  Joe also talked about the possible study & use of 0.06 G as explained in Slide 8.  I asked each guest for their concluding remarks, starting with Dr. Logan.  His take away was that it is critical to know the gravity prescription. Dr. Jurist was next saying there was no useless research and that gravity research may very well benefit us here on Earth in ways we can’t even imagine at this time.  Joe summarized his concluding thoughts per his last slide, talked about his possible plans to be more proactive with his work and suggested easy experiments that could be done with a Dragon and the spent first stage even on an ISS mission.

Please post your comments/questions on The Space Show blog above.  You can reach all of the guests through me but as stated earlier, Joe lists his email address on his presentation material.

Partial Gravity IAC2010 Presentation revised 2014May22

DesignConceptsForAMannedArtificialGravityResearchFacilityForIAC2010Sept14 rev 2014May22

Robert Walker, Friday, 3-14-14 March 15, 2014

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Robert Walker, Friday, 3-14-14

http://archived.thespaceshow.com/shows/2207-BWB-2014-03-14.mp3

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Guest:  Robert Walker.  Topics:  Artificial gravity, Earth gravity, life on Mars, and more.  Please direct all comments and questions regarding Space Show programs/guest(s) to the Space Show blog, https://thespaceshow.wordpress.com.  Comments and questions should be relevant to the specific Space Show program. Written Transcripts of Space Show programs are a violation of our copyright and are not permitted without prior written consent, even if for your own use. We do not permit the commercial use of Space Show programs or any part thereof, nor do we permit editing, YouTube clips, or clips placed on other private channels & websites. Space Show programs can be quoted, but the quote must be cited or referenced using the proper citation format. Contact The Space Show for further information. In addition, please remember that your Amazon purchases can help support The Space Show/OGLF. See www.onegiantleapfoundation.org/amazon.htm.  For those listening to archives using live365.com and rating the programs, please email me as to why you assign a specific rating to the show. This will help me bring better programming to the audience.

We welcomed back Robert Walker from the UK to discuss artificial gravity with us given our recent Space Show programs on the subject.  There was an audio issue with this program so listen carefully so you don’t miss anything.  During the first segment of our 90 minute program, Robert went over some of the basics such as the Coriolis effect, the gravity gradient, tethers, centrifuges, the vestibular effect, and more.  He also went over linear acceleration, spin rates, Russian experiments, issues facing space tourists, and spinning a Dragon capsule.  Robert has written many articles on artificial gravity which can be found at www.science20.com/space.  One such article was discussed yesterday. See  www.science20.com/robert_inventor/blog/ingeious_idea_soyuz_crew_tether_spin_way_iss_artificial_gravity_almost_no_extra_fuel-131278.  Also, check out www.science20.com/print/131279; www.science20.com/print/131278 & www.science20.com/print/129424.

In our second segment, Robert talked about both Inspiration Mars and Mars One as it relates to spinning to create artificial gravity, the number of revolutions per minute, simulate programs, and his favorite, a 2-3 year precursor mission at Earth L2.  He wants the mission designed to be a comprehensive test bed for artificial gravity.  Later in the segment while discussing Mars, he suggested we orbit Mars and not land on the planet.  Listen to his reasoning for this type of human Mars mission.  For one thing, he said its much safer to be in orbit.  We then focused on the possibility of microbial life on Mars, we talked about the Viking Labeled Release experiments.  Robert was asked a question about the sleeping centrifuge (you sleep horizontal as one does on Earth).  Partial gravity was discussed as well.  Robert said many times that we must find out what is going on with Mars. He mentioned the Phoenix mission which Mars One is planning to copy to some degree with its robotic mission to Mars in 2018.

Please post your comments/questions on TSS blog.  You can reach Robert via his articles or through me.

Golden Oldie Replay, Classroom Art. Gravity Show, 2-14-14 February 14, 2014

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Golden Oldie Replay, Classroom Art. Gravity Show, 2-14-14

Featuring Drs. Jurist & Logan, Joe Carroll from May 3, 2011

http://archived.thespaceshow.com/shows/2187-BWB-2014-02-14.mp3

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Guests:  Classroom:  Dr. David Livingston, Joe Carroll, Dr. John Jurist, Dr. Jim Logan.  Topics:  Manned artificial gravity research station in LEO.  Please note that this program originally aired as a Space Show Classroom program May 3, 2011.  This replay is being brought to you today as a result of the interest expressed in the subject during the Open Lines program of Feb. 2, 2014.  As this is a Golden Oldie replay, there is no live participation with this program.  If you have questions or comments for the co-hosts or Mr. Carroll, post them on The Space Show blog for this entry.  In addition, when the original Classroom program first aired, Mr. Carroll provided presentation material. You can see this material by going to http://spaceshowclassroom.wordpress.com/2011/05/01/lesson-three-presentation-material-5-3-11 and clicking on the two items available for review and download.  Also, the summary below is the unedited summary from the May 3, 2011 Classroom program which is posted both on The Space Show website archives for that date as well as on The Space Show Classroom archives for that date (http://spaceshowclassroom.wordpress.com).

Please direct all comments and questions regarding Space Show programs/guest(s) to the Space Show blog, https://thespaceshow.wordpress.com.  Comments and questions should be relevant to the specific Space Show program. Written Transcripts of Space Show programs are a violation of our copyright and are not permitted without prior written consent, even if for your own use. We do not permit the commercial use of Space Show programs or any part thereof, nor do we permit editing, YouTube clips, or clips placed on other private channels & websites. Space Show programs can be quoted, but the quote must be cited or referenced using the proper citation format. Contact The Space Show for further information. In addition, please remember that your Amazon purchases can help support The Space Show/OGLF. See www.onegiantleapfoundation.org/amazon.htm.

This two hour plus Classroom program was continuous without a break.  For this program, refer to the Power Point presentation by Joe, “Design Concepts for a Manned Artificial Gravity Research Facility.”  Mr. Carroll took us through this presentation slide by slide, plus he responded to listener and co-host questions throughout the program.  You can find this presentation plus his longer IAC Conference paper on The Space Show Classroom blog under Presentation Materials for our Classroom program for May 3, 2011.  Rather than writing a summary of this program, let me say that Mr. Carroll has given considerable thought to the engineering and human factors/human physiology issues regarding an artificial gravity research station in LEO.  Listener questions addressed technical issues relating to spin, center of mass/gravity, hits by orbital debris items and more.  Throughout this Classroom discussion, Joe took us into the technology, operations, and why’s regarding his artificial gravity research station.  Many issues were discussed including but not limited to Mars & lunar gravity, .06 G, spin rates, the Coriolis effect, the Gemini experiments, a Moon/Mars Dumbbell Concept, Airbeam tunnels, radial structure lengths, and much more.  Toward the end of the program, we discussed the economics, costs, and who might pay for and deploy such a station.  You will hear Joe talk about the present economic, cost, and R&D uncertainties for such a project, but you will also hear him talk about the commercial potentials, who should be given “free” access to the research station and why, the use of it with Space X as well as Bigelow, and why not doing it as a NASA project makes sense though he advocated NASA as a customer.  At the very end, I asked Joe about building some small models to help those of us who are not engineers in understanding and even visualizing his concept.  He liked that idea, talked about larger models of the size of a Boeing 737 cabin (he used this cabin size throughout his discussion and presentation), and possibly locating it at a company such as Space X.  As we concluded our discussion, all of us said that after 50 years of human spaceflight, to not be able to answer any of the questions regarding the issues discussed in this program was criminal. Furthermore, as you will hear Dr. Logan and the others say, you can determine the credibility of a human space program by the speed and determination of the commitment to understanding the necessary gravity needs for people, plants, and animals in space.  If there is no commitment to understanding these issues, the program is more likely a rhetoric only program.

Post your comments & questions on TSS blog URL above.  All participants can be emailed through me at drspace@thespaceshow.com.